Preamble

The House met at a Quarter before Three of the Clock, Mr. SPEAKER in the Chair.

Oral Answers to Questions — EVACUATION.

LONDON SCHOOL CHILDREN.

Sir Percy Harris: asked the Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education how many children of school age are still in London; whether arrangements are being made for some kind of education for them in the schools; and whether it is proposed to give parents another opportunity to agree to the evacuation of their children at an early date?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Board of Education (Mr. Kenneth Lindsay): I am not yet able to give the information asked for in the first part of the question. As regards the education of children remaining in London, the present position is that all schools in London and other evacuation areas remain closed for the time being. The question of making further arrangements for the evacuation of children is under consideration. It would be premature to give a more detailed answer at this moment, but hon. Members can rest assured that the whole matter is being actively considered.

Sir P. Harris: Does the Board realise how serious the position is in many parts of London with many children running about the streets with nothing to do at a time like this? Is it not important that something should be done quickly in the matter?

Mr. Lindsay: I have said that the matter is under active consideration at the moment, and I can assure the hon. Member that we are very much aware of the position.

Miss Wilkinson: Could not something be done in the way of an appeal to volun-

tary committees in the villages to keep the children amused during the day? Simply nothing is being done, and they are running about the roads, which is most dangerous at the moment.

Mr. Lindsay: If the hon. Lady is referring to the reception areas I hope that by to-day or to-morrow, or, at any rate, by Monday, all the schools will be open.

Sir Herbert Williams: Is anything being done to evacuate those between the ages of 14 and 15?

Mr. Lindsay: I should like to have notice of that question. Generally speaking all school children attending elementary and secondary schools came within the scope of the evacuation scheme.

Sir H. Williams: The point is that the school age is due to be raised to 15 to-morrow, I think. What is to happen to those between the ages of 14 and 15?

Mr. Lindsay: Each of the cases must be treated on its merits.

Commander Sir Archibald Southby: Is it not the case that in most rural areas a committee to look after the welfare and amusement of the children has already been set up and is working satisfactorily?

Mr. Lindsay: I am aware that in the reception areas much good will is being shown towards the children.

Sir William Davison: Is the Minister aware that only a day or two ago in about a quarter of a mile I saw three picnic parties of children who were superintended by local people?

INFIRM AND OLD PEOPLE.

Sir P. Harris: asked the Minister of Health whether any plans have been worked out for the evacuation from overcrowded areas of infirm and aged people who are not able to evacuate at their own expense; and, if so, when the scheme will come into operation?

The Minister of Health (Mr. Elliot): The infirm and aged are not among the priority groups hitherto included in the Government's evacuation plans. Any extension of those plans that may be deemed necessary will have to be considered with regard to the needs of the situation generally.

Sir P. Harris: Does the Minister realise that in the overcrowded areas there are many old people between 70 and 80 years of age who really are not able to look after themselves? Could not something be done to enable them to be taken away from the danger zone as soon as possible?

Mr. Elliot: At the moment we have to concentrate on the problem of the school children and children under five. I hope it will be possible to consider further plans to deal with those who have not been evacuated.

Mr. Thorne: Will the Government come to the help of local authorities in some way or another in order to enable them to get away a large number of absolutely helpless people between 70 and 80 years of age?

Mr. Elliot: As I say, our first consideration must be the children, and, secondly, we must consider, also, the reception areas which are at the moment hardly pressed.

Mr. James Hall: As soon as the evacuation programme has been completed will the Minister be prepared to consider these old people as having special priority?

Mr. Elliot: As I say, I must give my mind to completing the task upon which we have started. After that I am willing to review the general position.

Mr. R. C. Morrison: Will the right hon. Gentleman keep in mind that there are many old people who have places to go to in the country but have not enough money to get there? Could he not undertake the evacuation of these old people and be prepared to give them facilities for getting to their own places in the country districts?

Mr. Elliot: As soon as the evacuation is completed a certain number of trains will begin to run again, and I think it is by no means undesirable and unpatriotic that those people who are in the crowded areas and have places to go to in the country should begin to make their way out of the congested areas.

Sir Arthur Salter: Will the Minister consider making a statement after the people have been evacuated under the Government scheme—I am speaking of mothers and children under the school age and expectant mothers—making it clear that it is unpatriotic for them now

to flock back, as a great many of them are doing?

Mr. Elliot: Yes, Sir. I was discussing that question with an important deputation only this morning, and I think it is desirable on both sides that consideration should be exercised. It is quite true that difficulties will arise in the early stages, but I think that on both sides forbearance and patience should be exercised and that they should not—to use a rather slang phrase, chuck up the sponge and come back to the towns. It is desirable that the scheme having been started should be retained, and I have been discussing with the Secretary of State for Scotland whether a broadcast should not be made on this matter this evening.

SCOTLAND.

Mr. Henderson Stewart: asked the Secretary of State for Scotland whether he can make a report upon the evacuation of children and other classes in Scotland?

The Secretary of State for Scotland (Mr. Colville): The Government's scheme for the evacuation of school children and younger children with their mothers was carried out in Scotland between 1st and 3rd September. After the children had gone expectant mothers and blind persons were evacuated, and in all about 175,000 persons have been transferred to the reception areas. I am glad to say that the scheme in general has worked smoothly and I should like to pay a tribute to the local authorities of both the sending and receiving areas, the transport authorities and all the voluntary workers and individual householders to whom is due the success of the arrangements for the assembly, transport and reception of the evacuated persons.

Mr. Stewart: Is the Secretary of State satisfied on two important points: first, that all householders in the reception areas are doing their duty and playing fair by their neighbours in this matter; and, secondly, that all the necessary public services in the reception areas are, in fact, available?

Mr. Colville: Generally, I am glad to say that the scheme is working smoothly. There are, of course, local difficulties which I am investigating and dealing


with, but I may say without qualification that the general effect of the scheme has been good.

Mr. J. J. Davidson: Can the Secretary of State say whether any local authority committees have been set up whereby representations can be made by the children in the schools or their parents in regard to conditions?

Mr. Colville: Obviously that would be to the locality and not to the centre, and work of that sort is going on in many localities.

Mr. Davidson: Will any such representations be made to the local authorities in the area in which the children are resident?

Mr. Colville: Yes, Sir.

LINK AND ANGLO-GERMAN FELLOWSHIP.

Mr. Vyvyan Adams: asked the Secretary of State for the Home Department what steps are now being taken by His Majesty's Government to deal with organisation such as the Link and the Anglo-German Fellowship?

The Secretary of State for the Home Department (Sir John Anderson): I understand that the Link has gone into voluntary liquidation and the Anglo-German Fellowship has entirely suspended its activities.

Mr. Mander: May I ask whether it is the case that some members of the Link, British members, are being detained?

Sir J. Anderson: I cannot answer that question without notice.

Lieut.-Colonel Sir Thomas Moore: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that the members of these two organisations are as equally determined to defeat Hitlerism as anybody?

GOVERNMENT CONTRACTS.

Mr. De la Bère: asked the Minister of Supply the number of Government contracts that have been placed on the cost plus system; and whether he will discontinue this system in future and put all contracts out to public tender?

The Parliamentary Secretary to the Ministry of Supply (Colonel Llewellin): On the assumption that by the cost plus system my hon. Friend means contracts by which the purchaser undertakes to pay the actual manufacturing cost of an article, whatever that cost may be, plus a profit calculated on a percentage of that cost, the answer to the first part of the question so far as this Ministry is concerned is" None." It is not, however, practicable to put all contracts out to competitive tender since many technical military stores are outside the sphere of normal commercial production and in a number of cases the demand of the Government equals the whole manufacturing capacity so that competition is excluded.

Mr. De la Bère: Does the hon. and gallant Member realise that the cost plus system is being abused and that it requires constant and serious attention?

Sir Henry Morris-Jones: May I ask under which Department the construction of these camps comes? I have received many complaints from my constituency that the whole thing is a complete ramp.

Colonel Llewellin: Each Service Department building camps is building them for itself; it is not a matter for the Ministry of Supply.

PALESTINE (REFUGEES).

Commander Locker-Lampson: asked the Secretary of State for the Colonies whether his attention has been drawn to the fact that a British vessel has recently fired upon a boat or ship containing refugees when trying to land in Palestine; and will he now allow refugees to land, in view of the fact that the younger ones are willing to enrol either in His Majesty's or the Palestinian forces?

The Secretary of State for the Colonies (Mr. Malcolm MacDonald): Yes, Sir. The ship in question attempted deliberately to ram and sink a Government patrol launch, which was therefore obliged to fire on the ship in self-defence. To authorise the indiscriminate landing of refugees in Palestine would worsen rather than improve the security position there, which is at present satisfactory, and for that reason, in addition to others, the answer to the latter part of the question is in the negative.

Mr. T. Williams: May I ask whether any of these floating human cargoes, which will now be considerably minimised, on the High Seas at the moment, will be permitted to land?

Mr. MacDonald: I think the House appreciates that the situation between the Arab and Jewish population in Palestine is very delicate and requires careful handling.

Colonel Wedgwood: May I ask whether we cannot now stop trying to please Hitler?

EMERGENCY BUDGET.

Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer when he pro poses to open his emergency Budget?

The Chancellor of the Exchequer (Sir John Simon): I expect to be able to make an announcement on this subject shortly.

Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: May I take it that the right hon. Gentleman realises that the time to impose additional taxation and make a pronouncement on the budgetary programme is now, when restrictions upon expenditure are affecting the general community and the budgetary position?

Sir J. Simon: I think the right hon. Gentleman may take it that those consideration are very fully in my mind. That is why I said I hoped to make an announcement shortly.

Mr. Mander: Will the right hon. Gentleman bear in mind the statement made by the Prime Minister some months ago that he thought in war time some measure of capital levy should be considered?

Oral Answers to Questions — GERMANY.

AIR RAIDS, POLAND.

Mr. Thorne: asked the Prime Minister whether he has any official information in connection with the German air raiders in Poland using gas balloons filled with yperite or yellow cross gas?

The Under-Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs (Mr. Butler): I have been

asked to reply. This information is not confirmed by any of the reports received up to date by His Majesty's Government.

BRITISH LEAFLET.

Mr. Lewis: asked the Prime Minister whether he will make available to Members of this House a translation of the note to the German people of which the Ministry of Information state more than 6,000,000 copies were dropped by British aircraft on the night of 3rd September?

The Lord Privy Seal (Sir Samuel Hoare): I have been asked to reply. I shall be happy to comply with my hon. Friend's request, and I am accordingly circulating in the Official Report a translation of the leaflet to which he refers.

Mr. Pritt: Without prejudice to anything that may happen hereafter, could the right hon. Gentleman make that general? As far as those of us who know something about Germany are concerned, from what we see in the papers, we think the leaflets are very good, but whether they are good or bad, the public ought to see them.

Mr. Radford: Did my right hon. Friend say that he would send a translation to all hon. Members?

Sir S. Hoare: I said I would circulate it in the Official Report, and I see no reason why a similar practice should not be adopted continuously, although I will make the reservation that there might be exceptional cases, but I have not got them in mind.

Sir H. Williams: May I ask whether the document that is to be published is the one which appeared in the newspapers two days ago?

Sir S. Hoare: Yes, Sir.

Miss Wilkinson: In view of the fact that part of that document said that there was no objection in this country either to the Anschluss or to the linking up of Sudetenland with Germany, may I ask whether we are to understand that these bulletins do not contain tendentious Conservative propaganda?

Sir S. Hoare: I cannot accept any of the assumptions that underly the hon. Lady's question.

Following is the translation of the leaflet:

Oral Answers to Questions — WARNING.

A MESSAGE FROM GREAT BRITAIN.

GERMAN MEN AND WOMEN.

The Government of the Reich have with cold deliberation forced war upon Great Britain. They have done so knowing that it must involve mankind in a calamity worse than that of 1914. The assurances of peaceful intentions the Fuehrer gave to you and to "the world in April have proved as worthless as his words at the Sportpalast last September when he said: —" We have no more territorial claims to make in Europe."

Never has Government ordered subjects to their death with less excuse. This war is utterly unnecessary. Germany was in no way threatened or deprived of justice. Was she not allowed to re-enter the Rhineland, to achieve the Anschluss, and to take back the Sudeten Germans in peace? Neither we nor any other nation would have sought to limit her advance, so long as she did not violate independent non-German peoples.

Every German ambition—just to others— might have been satisfied through friendly negotiation.

President Roosevelt offered you both peace with honour and the prospect of prosperity. Instead your rulers have condemned you to the massacre, miseries and privations of a war they cannot even hope to win.

It is not us, but you they have deceived. For years their iron censorship has kept from you truths that even uncivilised peoples know. It has imprisoned your minds in, as it were, a concentration camp. Otherwise they would not have dared to misrepresent the combination of peaceful peoples to secure peace as hostile encirclement. We had no enmity against you, the German people.

This censorship has also concealed from you that you have not the means to sustain protracted warfare. Despite crushing taxation you are on the verge of bankruptcy. Our resources and those of our allies in men, arms, and supplies are immense. We are too strong to break by blows, and we could wear you down inexorably.

You, the German people, can, if you will, insist on peace at any time. We also desire peace and are prepared to conclude it with any peace-loving Government in Germany.

Mr. Mander: asked the Prime Minister why the Ministry of Information refused permission for the publication in this country of the leaflet distributed by aeroplanes in Germany?

Sir S. Hoare: I think that there is some misunderstanding. I am informed that the leaflet in question has been passed for publication by the Ministry of Information, and that a translation of it has, in fact, already appeared in the Press.

Mr. Mander: Is the Lord Privy Seal aware that the first information received

in this country about the leaflets was telegraphed from Amsterdam, and will he be good enough in future to arrange for earlier publication in this country?

Sir S. Hoare: I am not aware that that happened.

Sir Archibald Sinclair: Will the right hon. Gentleman make inquiries as to whether it is not a fact that the Press asked for this leaflet, that they were refused, and that publication was then made of a translation of the leaflet which came from Dutch sources?

Sir S. Hoare: I understand that the misunderstanding which arose was owing to the fact that application was made to one of the sections of the Ministry which was not the section responsible for this class of work. I think I can give an assurance that that is not likely to happen again.

FAR EAST (SITUATION).

Mr. Mander: asked the Prime Minister whether he has any statement to make with reference to the general position in the Far East and with regard to the four Chinese subjects at Tientsin, in connection with whom proceedings for a writ of habeas corpus have taken place?

Mr. Butler: Actual hostilities in the Far East during recent months have been on a very restricted scale, though operations of some importance appear to have been in progress since the beginning of May between Soviet-Mongolian and Japanese-Manchurian troops on the north-west frontier of Manchuria. In an aide-mémoire addressed on 5th September to the representatives in Tokyo of Great Britain, France, Poland and Germany, the Japanese Government have stated that they intend to concentrate their efforts on the settlement of their dispute with China. This communication goes on to say that the Japanese Government will be prepared to do their utmost to protect the lives and property of the nationals of belligerent Powers, should the latter decide to withdraw the armed forces, naval and military, which they at present maintain in those parts of China in Japanese occupation.
The conversations which His Majesty's Ambassador at Tokyo has been conducting on the subject of Tientsin are for the moment in suspense. His Majesty's


Government have, however, made it clear that they are not only willing but anxious to continue the conversations in the hope that agreement may yet be reached on all outstanding points. Meanwhile the situation at Tientsin is unchanged except in so far that it has been more complicated by floods. As regards the four Chinese nationals accused in connection with the murder of a Chinese official at Tientsin last April, His Majesty's Government have decided that, having regard to the decision of the High Court in London and to the notification previously made to the Chinese and Japanese Governments, these men could no longer be detained by the British authorities at Tientsin. Appropriate instructions were accordingly sent some days ago to His Majesty's Consul-General and the men have been handed over to the officials of the local Chinese court.

Mr. Mander: In view of the fact that there is an appeal pending in respect of the four Chinese persons in the court at Tientsin and the wider court at Shanghai, does not the right hon. Gentleman think that they should not have been surrendered until the court had given a decision?

Mr. Butler: I cannot accept the position as stated by the hon. Member, but I would draw his attention to the High Court's decision, to which I directed attention in my answer, which proceeded on the basis that a writ of habeas corpus cannot be issued in respect of foreigners detained in a foreign country.

Mr. Mander: May I ask whether any consideration has been given to the alleged confessions of two Chinese in respect of these events?

Mr. Butler: I think every relevant fact has been taken into consideration.

Mr. Dingle Foot: Can the right hon. Gentleman say whether or not it is a fact that notice of appeal has been lodged?

Mr. Butler: I understand that is not so.

Mr. Pritt: Is not the right hon. Gentleman aware that new proceedings for habeas corpus can not only be lodged, but were returnable for hearing either yesterday or to-day, and, if that be so, is it not very improper to surrender the men

when legal proceedings with regard to them are pending?

Mr. Butler: The hon. and learned Gentleman may rest assured that in this matter, in which many technical legal considerations are involved, His Majesty's Government have taken the best legal advice available. They have been advised that the decision of the High Court is the one by which they should be guided.

Mr. Pritt: Does not the right hon. Gentleman realise that the decision of the High Court here could not possibly bar or affect in any way proceedings in a court out there? Ought not the Government to look into the matter again?

Mr. Butler: I can only give the House the decision taken by the Government, which is in the light of the highest legal advice given to them and based on the original decision of the High Court here.

Mr. Davidson: Can this be the Government's price for Japanese friendship?

MINISTRY OF INFORMATION.

Mr. O. Lewis asked: the Prime Minister which Member of the Government will reply in the House of Commons to questions about the work of the Ministry of Information?

The Prime Minister (Mr. Chamberlain): My right hon. Friend the Lord Privy Seal will reply and, without taking any share in the executive responsibility for the Ministry, will keep in close touch with its work in order to represent its point of view both in this House and at the War Cabinet.

Mr. T. Williams: Can the Lord Privy Seal inform us whether Lord Macmillan or Admiral Osborne is the actual Censor?

Sir S. Hoare: That question should be put on the Paper.

Mr. Arthur Greenwood: (by Private Notice): asked the Lord Privy Seal whether the Ministry of Information is now in full operation, how it is organised, what are the names of the chief officials, both at headquarters and in any regional organisation, and of the members of any Advisory Council which may have been formed to assist the Minister.

Sir S. Hoare: Except for a few posts the Ministry is now fully staffed, and all its divisions are in operation; but it has been in existence for less than a week, and I trust that neither the House nor the public will expect it to be in full working order in so short a time. It is organised in 14 divisions, gathered into four groups, the first dealing with news and Press relations and the censorship; the second with the application of publicity on a geographical basis, covering home, the Empire, U.S.A. and other foreign countries respectively; the third with the production of publicity in the form of films; wireless; literature and art; posters, advertisements, periodicals and pamphlets, etc., respectively, and the fourth with administration and co-ordination. Each division is under a Director, one with the rank of Deputy-Director-General; and the Directors, with the Director-General and Deputy-Director-General, who rank as the Permanent Secretary and Second Secretary respectively of a first-class Government Department, form the Executive Council of the Minister. The Minister is also responsible for publicity in enemy countries, which is dealt with in a separate branch of the Ministry. The Minister is also assisted by an Advisory Council, consisting of representatives of the several political parties, of the newspaper world and broadcasting, of business, of the Trades Union Congress and the cooperative movement, and other general or particular interests. The work of the Ministry at home is organised in a system of regions, corresponding with the regions under the Home Security Scheme, each under a Chief Regional Information Officer. I will circulate in the Official Report the names of the members of the Advisory Council; the members of the Executive Council and their chief divisional assistants; and the Chief Regional Information Officers.

Mr. Thorne: Are we to take it for granted that this is the Ministry which was responsible for the information broadcast concerning the air-raid warning yesterday? [Laughter.] It is not a laughing matter. A number of people have come to my house whose children are evacuated so far away that they did not know whether the children were affected or not, and it was not possible to find out whether children were in the area where the raid was supposed to have

happened. I think information of that kind should be given to the public, so that the mothers of children may be assured that there are no bombs flying about in the places where their children are.

Sir S. Hoare: I assure the hon. Member that my Noble Friend will look carefully and sympathetically into questions of that kind, but it will be understood that the problem is a very difficult one. Aeroplanes move very swiftly, and there is the danger of giving news to the enemy and so on, but I can assure the hon. Member that it is the general desire of the Minister of Information to give the country as much information as he can, as quickly as he can.

Mr. Thorne: It is not suggested that the Germans do not know where they are, when they are flying over?

Mr. Boothby: Can my right hon. Friend say whether the department of propaganda in enemy countries is a separate department or is under one of the four main divisions which he mentioned at the beginning? I do not think that was made clear.

Sir S. Hoare: It comes, as far as I remember, directly under the Minister.

Mr. Roland Robinson: Would my right hon. Friend ask the Ministry of Information to issue public statements without delay after attempted air raids such as we had yesterday, when there were rumours which caused misunderstanding and confusion?

Sir S. Hoare: In a matter of this kind we have to take into account our experience. I agree with my hon. Friend and we are at the moment looking into this question; but again let me point out that the matter is not as simple as it seems at first sight. We are aware of the fact that the country wants information.

Sir Richard Acland: Will the right hon. Gentleman realise the importance of winning the battle for the headlines all over the world against General Goering?

Following is the information referred to:

The Advisory Council of the Minister of Information.

1. Those who have so far accepted invitations to sit on the advisory Council are:

Sir Campbell Stuart, G.C.M.G., K.B.E.

W. H. Bailey, Esq.

Major the Hon. J. J. Astor, M.P.

W. Harold Thomson, Esq.

Lord lliffe, C.B.E.

Professor F. W. Ogilvie, LL.D.

Mr. Will Evans.

Sir Roderick Jones, K.B.E.

The Rt. Hon. the Earl of Elgin and Kincardine, K.C.M.G.

Major-General Sir James Cooke-Collis, K.R.E.M.

The Rt. Hon. Lord Lloyd of Dolobran, G.C.S.I., G.C.I.E., D.S.O.

Mrs. Montagu Norman.

Director-General.—The Rt. Hon. The Earl of Perth, G.C.M.G., C.B.


Deputy Director-General.—Mr. A. P. Waterfield, C.B., (see also Division 11 below).


Division.
Director.
Deputy and Assistant Directors.


Group I




1.
News and Press Relations.
The Hon. Esmond Harmsworth
Mr. T. Clarke (Deputy Director).





Mr. J. H. Brebner, M.B.E. (Assistant Director).


2.
Censorship
Vice-Admiral C. V. Usborne, C.B., C.M.G.
Rear-Admiral E. C. O. Thomson, C.B., D.S.O. (Deputy Director).





Mr. C. J. Miles, M.B.E. (Assistant Director).





Press Adviser (not yet appointed).


Group II.




3.
Home Publicity
Professor John Hilton
Mr. H. V. Rhodes.


4.
Foreign Publicity
*
Colonel Charles Bridge, C.M.G., D.S.O.


5.
Empire Publicity
Mr. H. V. Hodson
—


6.
U.S.A. Publicity
Sir Frederick Whyte, K.C.S.I., LL.D.
—


Group III.




7.
Film Publicity
Sir Joseph Ball, K.B.E.
Mr. G. E. G. Forbes.


8.
Radio and Communications.
*
Mr. H. G. G. Welch (see also Division 11 below).


9.
Literature and Art
(Temporarily included with Division 10 below).



10.
Other Production
Mr. Surrey Dane
Mr. W. G. V. Vaughan.


11.
Administration
Mr. A.P. Waterfield, C.B. (Also Deputy Director General).
Mr. H. G. G. Welch (Finance) (see also Division 8 above).






Mr. B. L. Pearson, D.S.O. (Parliamentary and General).





Mr. D. B. Woodburn (Establishments).


12&amp;13
Co-ordination
Mr. Ivison S. Macadam, C.B.E., C.V.O.
—




Mr. Raymond W. Needham, K.C. (also Legal Adviser).



14.
Intelligence
Mr. J. Beresford, C.B.E.
Mr. E. J. W. Jackson.


* Appointments to these posts will be made shortly.

3. The names of the Chief Regional Information Officers of the Ministry with their respective regions are:

Region No. 1. Northern (Newcastle)—V. Ewart Berry, Esq.

Region No. 2. North-Eastern (Leeds)— Commander J. B. Adams, C.V.O., C.B.E.,D.S.O.

Lady Denman, D.B.E.

Lord Cadman, G.C.M.G., D.Sc.

Mr. D'Arcy Cooper.

Captain Malcolm Bullock, M.P.

Lieut.-Colonel Charles Kerr, D.S.O.. M.P.

Major A. G. Church, D.S.O., M.C.

Mr. P. J. Noel-Baker, M.P.

Captain Ernest Evans, M.P.

Mr. Charles Dukes.

Mr. Alfred Barnes, M.P.

The Standing Chairman of the Council, in the absence of the Minister, will be Sir Campbell Stuart, who will also be responsible, under the Minister, for publicity in enemy countries.

2. The following are the names of the members of the Minister's Executive Council and their chief assistants, with their divisional responsibilities:

Region No. 4. Eastern (Cambridge)—Tom D. Copeman, Esq.

Region No. 6. Southern (Reading)—W. Tomkinson, Esq.

Region No. 7. South-Western (Bristol)— Jas. L. Palmer, Esq., F.R.G.S.

Region No. 8. Wales (Cardiff)—Sir Robert J. Webber, J.P.. D.L., F.Z.S., F.S.A.

Region No. 9. Midland (Birmingham)—Sir Arthur Willert, K.B.E.

Region No. 10. North-Western (Manchester) —Sir Ernest D.Simon.

Region No. 11. Scotland (Edinburgh) — James Willock, Esq.

Region No. 12. South-Eastern (Tunbridge Wells) —H. R. Pratt-Boorman, Esq.

Other appointments are pending.

SHOPS (EMERGENCY CLOSING).

Mr. A. V. Alexander: (by Private Notice) asked the Minister for Home Security whether he will take into immediate consideration the issue of an order with regard to the hours of shop closing, so as to ensure uniformity of practice in relation to "black-out" precautions, and to provide the maximum of safety for employés and customers?

Sir J. Anderson: There must, of course, in any event be observance of the Lighting Order, and adequate measures must be taken to obscure lights in shops which are open after dark. If the right hon. Gentleman has in mind the closing of all shops at dusk, account must, I suggest, be taken of the difficulties which would be caused in the winter months, especially to the industrial population: but I shall be ready to consider any suggestions which the right hon. Gentleman may wish to make to me on this subject.

Mr. Alexander: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in some areas shopkeepers have already begun to deal with the matter on those lines themselves, while in other areas they cannot at present obtain local agreement? Until the Government are prepared to make a general order, I am afraid these differences will be maintained. I think if the right hon. Gentleman will go into the matter—which is all I ask—immediately, it will be found that a proper adjustment can be arrived at in relation to this matter now.

Sir J. Anderson: I am looking into it. It may be that an order could be made allowing for an element of local discretion, but I will look into it in all its aspects.

Sir P. Harris: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that in many towns the vast majority of retail traders are very anxious to close earlier, but are unable to do so because a few are standing out against the proposal; and will he either give a lead to the country about it, or, in the

final resort, use some compulsory powers in the interests of the community as a whole, and particularly shop-workers who find it difficult to get home at night under present conditions?

Sir J. Anderson: I have already indicated that I will look into the matter in all its aspects, but the point which I tried to make in my original answer was that I must have regard, not only to the interests of the shopkeepers and their assistants, but also to the interests of the general population.

Mr. Stephen: When the right hon. Gentleman is looking into this matter, will he also look into the question raised by yesterday's occurrence when work people on their way to work were held up by the signal—

Mr. Speaker: That does not arise on this question.

Mr. Jagger: Is the right hon. Gentleman aware that, in innumerable cases, shop assistants are being kept, and, in the absence of some order, will be kept working abominable hours?

Sir J. Anderson: There is in force a provision based upon the restrictions that were applied in the last War. That is already in general operation.

Mr. Jagger: But does that deal with hours of labour?

Mr. Aneurin Bevan: When the right hon. Gentleman is considering this matter, will he also take into immediate consideration the question of reopening cinemas and theatres in reception areas in the country?

Sir John Haslam: Will the right hon. Gentleman consult with local authorities on this matter; and will he see that the interests of small individual shopkeepers are considered as well as those of the large multiple stores and the shop assistants? There are others who want to be considered as well as the multiple shops.

GENERAL SITUATION.

Mr. Greenwood: May I ask the Prime Minister whether he is now in a position to make a statement on the general situation, as he promised yesterday?

The Prime Minister: The House will, I am sure, realise that it is impossible for me to give more than a general indication of the present situation and of the state of our defences. There is necessarily a number of matters to which, in the public interest, it is impossible for me to refer.
With that necessary preamble I will give the House a resumé of the position. In the East the Poles are fighting hard against a strong and ruthless enemy, who is relying on the weight of numbers and material to crush all opposition. The Polish soldier has ever shown himself to be a courageous and determined fighter; and, to-day, he is worthily maintaining this tradition. Against overwhelming superiority in the air, outnumbered and outgunned, he is contesting every yard of the German advance.
The Germans have often stressed the need for a short war and a quick decision. In pursuance of this idea the German plan appears to be to concentrate their first main effort against Poland, and as the House is aware, that country was invaded just over a week ago without any formal declaration of war. In spite of the human and material losses which they have already suffered, the morale and courage of the Polish people remain unaffected. His Majesty's Government and the French Government have to-day signed an agreement with the Polish Government for the provision of further financial assistance to Poland to enable her to replenish her resources.
In the West, France has, like ourselves, mobilised her forces with complete efficiency and smoothness, and they are now in contact with the enemy on their common frontier. Certain information has been published of what has taken place, but, for obvious reasons, no details can yet be disclosed. The outbreak of war has found the same spirit, determination, and solidarity among the French people as is evident here. The understanding between the two countries is complete, and the arrangements, which have now been put into force, for co-operation in all the activities concerned with the prosecution of the war are working smoothly and well.
In this country the defensive military dispositions of our Army, which cover a very wide field, were made in good time, owing to the precautionary measures which it was decided to adopt during the period of tension.
The manning of the Anti-Aircraft and Coast Defences was efficiently carried out. Within a short time of calling out the units, guns and searchlights were fully manned. Since a large number of the A.A. units were in camp and away from their home stations, this reflects great credit on their organisation.
The guarding of vulnerable points has been taken over by the National Defence companies supplemented by personnel of the Territorial Army. The personnel reached their posts with the minimum of delay and under trying weather conditions.
The mobilisation of the remainder of the Army has been carried out with the greatest smoothness. The morale of all ranks is high. In particular, the spirit of the reservists recalled from civil life, some of whom have already this year been called up for training, is excellent.
I should like to make special mention of the women of the Auxiliary Territorial Services, who are performing many tasks under arduous conditions and thereby relieving soldiers for fighting duties.
Turning to the naval side, the most important feature up to the present has been the development of German U-boat attacks on our shipping. The sinking of the "Athenia," with its scenes of death and terror, virtually opened the war, and no denials or inventions on the part of Germany will convince the public of German innocence of this crime which has profoundly shocked and horrified the world.
Apart from the case of the "Athenia," there have been attacks on other British merchant ships by German U-boats, and three or four ships have been sunk.
On our side, the Admiralty have taken immediate counter measures. British destroyers and other anti-submarine craft have been very active, and large reinforcements of anti-submarine and escort vessels are rapidly becoming available.
As my right hon. Friend the First Lord has already informed the House, steps are being taken to establish a convoy system at the earliest possible moment. This method of protection can obviously only be instituted after the outbreak of war, and it takes time to bring it fully into operation, but the House can be satisfied that it is being applied with the


utmost possible speed and vigour. Most of the ships which have been attacked hitherto are vessels which commenced their voyages before war had broken out, and naturally, for them the full scope of our defensive organisation could not immediately provide.
While a certain proportion of weekly losses must be expected—and I do not minimise the threat to our shipping—I think the House and the country may rest assured that the Navy, with all their war-time experience of handling this problem, and with the added advantage of the methods of submarine detection and destruction which have since been developed, will increasingly bring the problem under control.
I should next like to pay my tribute to the very gallant attack which was made by units of the Royal Air Force on certain German warships off Wilhelmshaven, during which at least two hits were secured on one of the so-called pocket battleships.
It will be realised that the objectives attacked, namely, the German Fleet bases at Wilhelmshaven and at the entrance to the Kiel Canal, are probably among the most strongly defended points in Germany. The manner in which the Royal Air Force attacks were pressed home, despite the strength of the defences, is worthy of the highest praise.
I should also mention the weather conditions prevailing on the afternoon of the attack. Visibility was extremely poor, and the final stages of the attack are stated to have been carried out in a blinding rainstorm. A high degree of navigational skill was thus necessary to enable the attack to reach its objective at all, and the fact that hits were registered demonstrates the ability of the Royal Air Force to carry out its attacks under conditions of great difficulty.
Finally, I think it right to stress the fact that a high proportion of the officers and men in the squadrons concerned have entered the Royal Air Force and received their training since expansion began. The House may also be interested to learn that those who took part in the attack included a number who came from the Dominions.
As the House knows, extensive reconnaissance flights have been carried out

over Germany on three successive nights during the last week by units of the Bomber Command. More than 10,000,000 copies of Notes to the German people have been distributed over a wide area of Northern and Western Germany, including the Ruhr. Although on each occasion the enemy defences were set fully in motion, no contact was secured by enemy fighters and all our aircraft returned safely.
The activity of the Fighter and Coastal Commands, if less conspicuous, has been no less intense. From the early stages of the emergency all squadrons of the Fighter Command have been at their war stations and in a state of instant readiness.
The Coastal Command has also been busily engaged in extensive reconnaissance over the surrounding seas in order to locate and destroy enemy submarines.
I now wish to say something of the organisation of the Home Defence Services, which is being rapidly completed.
The Regional organisation is functioning well. There is still some shortage of whole-time personnel, but this is chiefly now to be found in country districts.
The enforcement of the blackout is proceeding satisfactorily. With the help of the Air Force Reconnaissance every night, it has been possible to discover lights irregularly showing, and action is at once taken to deal with the offenders.
The Government decided last Thursday that the plans for evacuation, mainly in respect of school children, young children, and their mothers, should be put into operation.
Evacuation started on Friday morning; in a number of towns it was completed by Saturday; in London, where the problem is exceptionally large, it was completed by Monday. The operation has now been substantially completed and has covered, not only those towns for which plans had been worked out beforehand, but also a number of other vulnerable areas. So far approximately 1,475,000 children and mothers have been evacuated in the country as a whole.
The arrangements for evacuation and transport were carried out without a hitch, and those responsible for reception in the receiving areas have displayed remarkable enterprise, efficiency, and good will.
The process of assimilating this large increase of population in the receiving areas will take time and calls for tolerance and mutual understanding. Schools are to be reopened in the receiving areas as quickly as possible, and both public authorities and voluntary effort will be busily occupied with measures for the welfare of the children and for the assistance of the householders who are so generously providing homes for the mothers and children.
Over 200,000 hospital beds are to-day ready for air-raid casualties. Of those, 56,500 are in the London region, 15,500 inside the county and 41,000 outside the county. The beds in any region would, of course, be available to meet the needs of any other hard-pressed area.
Over 11,000 trained nurses, 4,000 assistant nurses, and over 50,000 auxiliary nurses have joined the Civil Nursing Reserve for service in hospitals and first-aid posts; but more of both trained nurses and auxiliaries are needed, especially women who can give whole-time service in any part of the country.
Nearly 2,500 doctors have accepted enrolment in the Emergency Medical Service, and acceptances are being received daily.
The Auxiliary Fire Service was mobilised, quickly and, on the whole, smoothly, and, in the main, the available fire-fighting units are being kept permanently manned and ready for action.
In London, for example, there are over 1,800 fire pumps ready for action, as against about 125 in peace time.
I hope that the statement I have made will show the House and the country that our war effort in its many aspects is rapidly gaining momentum. I know that it has behind it the full weight of all the people of this country, who are united in their conviction that no nation ever went to war in a higher cause.
We are greatly heartened by the knowledge that, in the straggle for the defence of liberty and free institutions and the preservation of all that makes life worth living, we can count on the support of the oversea members of the British Commonwealth.
Of their own free will and under no form of compulsion, save the moral com-

pelling force of right and justice, these self-governing nations have declared their intention of co-operating in a cause which is no less precious to them than it is to the people of the Homeland.

Mr. Greenwood: May I first, on behalf of Members of the House, thank the right hon. Gentleman for his statement. May I thank him also for his statement yesterday that it is his intention at regular and, I hope, frequent intervals to keep the House fully informed of the war situation. May I, however, express my regret that the circumstances of his statement to-day make it impossible for anybody to speak upon it, and express the hope that next week the statement will be of a character which may enable something, perhaps a little wider than supplementary questions to be put. I would like to put one or two questions to the Prime Minister which I should have preferred to put as statements, and if they are a little complicated I hope that Mr. Speaker will forgive me.
May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he is aware of the state of the Press last evening; whether he is aware of the growing uneasiness in this House and outside it regarding the lack of information concerning the war; whether he is aware that yesterday we had a situation on a much smaller scale then, but very similar in principle to, that of last Saturday in this House; whether he is aware that wild rumours of a most fantastic kind were flying round this House; whether, in order to avoid that kind of situation and to maintain the spirit of the people, who are as brave and as keen as he and his Government, he will give us here and now a specific pledge that he on his part, without in any way making statements which ought not to be made in the public interest, which would be a crime, he will unbosom himself to the full when he speaks to us and the country in future; and that, whether things be good or bad, he will tell the country early; whether he is not aware that, had that magnificent statement he made about the Keil incident been published on the day of that achievement, it would have heartened our people; whether he is aware that if he tells them of a situation which appears like a temporary reverse it will not dishearten them but will make them more resolute? I put this very complicated question


because I feel that now, before things go far, the people of our land should know that nothing is to be withheld from them and that they are to be trusted with the truth, however distasteful it may be.

The Prime Minister: I think I can give a fairly simple answer to the right hon. Gentleman's complicated question. I am sure that he, and the House generally, will recognise that when we are bringing into instant operation a somewhat complicated machine there is apt to be a little creaking at first, but I can tell him that we fully appreciate the considerations he has put before the House, and that we had that very subject under discussion this morning at a meeting of the War Cabinet. He can take it from me that we will endeavour to deal with it in exactly the spirit which he expressed in his questions. We do not want to keep the public in the dark. On the other hand, we do not want to give them inaccurate information. Very frequently it is not possible immediately to be certain what the facts are. Of course, that does not necessarily exclude our saying something which, without giving all the facts, might give some of the facts about which there is no dispute whatever. We do not defend on its merits what has happened. We say that we agree that it might have been better done, but that these things have got to be found out by experience and that we hope to do better in future.

Mr. Arthur Henderson: May I ask whether, in view of the fact that the German invasion of Poland is a clear breach of the League Covenant, it is the policy of the Government to bring the matter before a meeting of the League Council as soon as it can be conveniently arranged in order that public opinion throughout the world may have an opportunity of expressing itself?

The Prime Minister: I understand that we have suggested to the League of Nations that they should postpone their meeting for the time being to see how things develop, so that, without giving a final answer to the question, I think that at the immediate moment there is nothing further to be said.

Sir A. Sinclair: The Prime Minister told us that the work of the National Defence Companies in guarding points of importance was being supplemented by units of the Territorial Army. Does that

not mean that young men are being deprived of the military training which they ought now to be having, and are not the Government considering calling upon ex-service men, who are so anxious to work at the present time, and organising them for the purpose of such duties?

The Prime Minister: I think that the present arrangement must be considered a temporary one.

Major-General Sir Alfred Knox: I would like to ask a question, but I do not know whether the Prime Minister will find it possible to answer it in the public interest. It is whether he thinks it will soon be possible for the Allies in the West to undertake such military operations as may relieve pressure on Poland, which is now fighting for its life?

The Prime Minister: I could not possibly answer that question.

Mr. Stephen: In view of the Prime Minister's statement about what happened yesterday, may I ask whether the Government will take any steps to prevent workpeople losing wages if they are prevented from getting to their work when a raid is in progress?

Mr. Thurtle: rose —

Mr. Stephen: On a point of Order. Surely I am entitled to ask the Prime Minister that question?

Mr. Speaker: It should be put as a separate question.

Mr. Thurtle: Is the Prime Minister aware that there is a strong public opinion that, in the contractual obligation to Poland of ourselves and France to go to her immediate assistance if she is hard-pressed, time is of the essence of the contract?

Mr. McEntee: In regard to the latter part of the Prime Minister's statement about evacuation, may I ask whether he proposes to take any steps to have evacuated from the danger areas cripples, people who are bedridden and others who are quite unable to look after themselves.

Mr. Speaker: rose—

Mr. McEntee: On a point of Order. Surely my question arises out of the statement made by the Prime Minister regarding the evacuation of mothers, babies and school children. I want to know whether it is proposed to extend the evacuation.

Mr. Speaker: The hon. Member should have asked his question as a supplementary to the one on the Paper.

Mr. John Morgan: Will the Prime Minister include in his next survey references to the food situation of a reassuring kind; and would it also be possible to include the tonnage of vessels that make port, seeing that we get reports of the sinking of vessels? If we had the tonnage of those which have arrived home it would give us a feeling of assurance.

Mr. Benjamin Smith: Having regard to the statement that it is to be expected, until we have completed the deployment of our sea forces, that a number of vessels will be lost, may I ask whether the Prime Minister is seeing to it that the whole of the services of our shippers are being made available, so that not only may this country be provided with all its necessities but our Allies served with the troops and material they want?

The Prime Minister: I do not think that is a question which should be addressed to me on a statement of this kind. It is rather a Departmental question.

BUSINESS OF THE HOUSE.

Mr. Greenwood: May I ask the right hon. Gentleman whether he can state the business on re-assembly of the House?

The Prime Minister: On Wednesday next, 13th September, the House will meet at the usual hour of 2.45, and we shall make further progress with the Control of Employment Bill and take the Second Reading of the Universities and Colleges (Emergency Provisions) Bill, the Administration of Justice (Emergency Provisions) (Northern Ireland) Bill, and the Patents, Designs, Copyright and Trade Marks (Emergency) Bill.

Mr. Greenwood: Has the right hon. Gentleman any idea whether it may be necessary for the House to meet on Thursday, because it might be for the convenience of hon. Members to know?

The Prime Minister: Yes, I do expect that the House will have to meet on Thursday.

Miss Wilkinson: In view of the difficulties of Members arising from the read-

ing of Bills which are brought in before they are printed, would it be possible to waive the rules that Bills cannot be in the hands of Members until after they have been formally introduced?

The Prime Minister: In the rush of these days we have had to shorten the usual procedure, but I think that now it will be possible to return to more normal ways of doing things.

Mr. Stephen: May I ask whether it is intended to introduce a Bill to provide that workpeople who lose time when they are held up going to work during an air-raid warning will be paid their wages for that time, and, secondly, whether workpeople who are delayed in getting to work during an air-raid will be entitled to have workmen's tickets after the usual hour?

The Prime Minister: I would ask the hon. Member to put down those two questions.

BILLS PRESENTED.

UNIVERSITIES AND COLLEGES (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS) BILL,

"to provide, in connection with the present emergency, for amending the Universities and College Estates Act, 1925, and for extending the powers of the Universities of Oxford and Cambridge and the colleges therein to make statutes," presented by Colonel Sir Reginald Dorman-Smith; supported by the Attorney-General; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 268.]

ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE (EMERGENCY PROVISIONS) (NORTHERN IRELAND) BILL,

"to provide for the modification of the law relating to the administration of justice in Northern Ireland as respects the period of the present emergency and for purposes connected therewith," presented by Sir John Anderson; supported by Mr. Peake; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 269.]

PATENTS, DESIGNS, COPYRIGHT AND TRADE MARKS (EMERGENCY) BILL,

"to make such special provision with respect to patents, registered designs, copyright and trade marks, as is ex-


pedient to meet any emergency which may arise as a result of war," presented by Mr. Stanley; supported by the Solicitor-General and Major Lloyd George; to be read a Second time upon Wednesday next, and to be printed. [Bill 270.]

ADJOURNMENT (ACCELERATION OF MEETING).

Resolved,
That for the remainder of the Session whenever the House stands adjourned and it is represented to Mr. Speaker by His Majesty's Government that the public interest requires that the House should meet at any earlier time during the Adjournment, and Mr. Speaker is satisfied that the public interest does so require, he may give notice that he is so satisfied, and thereupon the House shall meet at the time stated in such notice and the Government Business to be transacted on the day on which the House shall so meet shall, subject to the publication of notice thereof in the Order Paper to be circulated on the day on which the House shall so meet, be such as the Government may appoint, but subject as aforesaid the House shall transact its business as if it had been duly adjourned to the day on which it shall so meet, and any Government Orders of the Day and Government Notices of Motions that may stand on the Order Book for any day shall be appointed for the day on which the House shall so meet; provided also that in the event of Mr. Speaker being unable to act owing to illness or other cause, the Chairman of Ways and Means, in his capacity as Deputy-Speaker, be authorised to act in his stead for the purposes of this Resolution."—[The Prime Minister.]

Orders of the Day — LIABILITY FOR WAR DAMAGE (MISCELLANEOUS PROVISIONS) BILL [Lords].

Order for Second Reading read.

3.44 p.m.

The Solicitor-General (Sir Terence O'Connor): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
This Bill comes to the House from another place, where it passed through all its stages yesterday. In regard to this Bill, as in the case of another recent Bill dealing with war damage, we are greatly indebted to the Uthwatt Committee for the labours which they undertook over a considerable period of time, and for their advice and recommendations, which have resulted in this Bill. I am sorry that hon. Members will not have had very much time to read the recommendations of that committee, as they were published only a few days ago, but fortunately this is a Bill which is not likely to excite any contentious interest. I propose to summarise what the Bill seeks to do and shall do so on the assumption that the House consists exclusively of laymen. It is a Bill to relieve bailees of their obligations. For the benefit of my lay colleagues, let me describe roughly what a bailee is. I should say that a bailee is any person having in his possession the goods of another person for whatever purpose. I except burglars from that category, and so perhaps I ought to have said "lawful possession." This Bill relieves such persons of the liability of bailees in respect of goods in their possession which suffer loss or damage as a result of war. War damage is very widely defined in Clause 8, as the House will see. It is defined as loss or damage
caused by or, in repelling, enemy action, or by measures taken to avoid the spreading of the consequences of damage caused by or in repelling enemy action.
At Common Law bailees are liable only for negligence. Provided that they act carefully in regard to the goods in their possession, there is no liability at Common Law. Certain exceptions to the Common Law which limited even the obligations of a bailee in regard to negligence were made in the Innkeepers Liability Act and by the law in relation to common carriers.

Apart from the Common Law, bailees remain liable, even where they have not been negligent, in respect of express terms in contracts of bailment that are made. An example of that is that a bailee may by contract make himself liable where he detains goods after the conclusion of the contract of bailment, or if he departs from the terms of the bail. The express contracts that exist between people who lend goods, or warehouse them, or perform other acts of bailment, impose such obligations as that the goods should be kept insured, that they should not be moved from place to place, and that the bailee should make himself responsible for all risks.
It is quite clear that most contracts of bailment—perhaps the commonest cases are hire-purchase agreements—were made in circumstances in which nobody contemplated that the hire-purchaser, the bailee, would render himself liable to compensation for war damage. The Bill excludes war risks from the contracts of bailees, except in cases where it is expressly provided for in the contract that the bailee is to remain liable. Even where there is an express term in a contract that the bailee will stand war damage, we propose to make two exceptions, which will cover the vast majority of the cases of bailment. They are to be found in the proviso to Sub-section (1) on page 2.In all hire-purchase agreements to which the Act of 1938 applies, or hirings for less than £20 a year, even if there is an express term in the contract saying that the bailee is liable for war damage, this Bill will relieve the bailee from all such liability.
Clause 2 deals with the similar situation arising in the case of people who have goods on sale or return. Goods under £25, as the House will see from the proviso, are in no circumstances to be subjected to liability for war damage in the hands of the holder of the goods, whether or not he has contracted to pay or insure for war damage. In relation to goods of greater value on sale or return, the bailee equally is not to be liable for war damage unless he has entered into an express contract to cover war damage according to the terms of the contract.

Mr. Ammon: How does that affect people who are storing furniture?

The Solicitor-General: They are covered under Clause 1. If the furniture


is damaged as a result of war damage, the warehouseman is not responsible except in the case where he enters into an express contract to cover war damage. If the furniture has been deposited under a contract made before the War, such a provision would be most unlikely to be in such contract. Clause 3 deals with the case of innkeepers and relieves them of liability. My hon. and learned Friends in the House may think that that is an overlap with Clause 1, but there are certain cases which seem to suggest that the innkeeper is not a bailee, so that it was thought wise to have the provision in for safety. Clause 4 deals with the case of pawnbrokers. The pawnbroker is subject to express statutory provision, and the scheme of Clause 4 is that the loss has to lie where it falls. If by fire pledged goods are destroyed, any obligation between the pledger and the pledgee is dissolved and the pledger of the goods will only be liable to pay any loan which he may have had if he comes along to redeem the goods.
Clause 5 deals with the somewhat curious situation of the person who has dutiable goods in store on which he owes duty. The first Sub-section relieves the owner from liability to duty where the goods are completely lost before the duty is paid. Sub-section (2) deals with the case in which goods are damaged in store, and two sets of circumstances have to be envisaged. The first is the class of case where the goods are subject to an ad valorem duty. That case did not present the Committee with very much difficulty. In the case of an ad valorem duty the owners are to be charged only on the value of goods undamaged, which seems a simple and fair way out. Much greater problems presented themselves to the Committee when they came to consider how to deal with goods which were charged not on their value but on their weight. It was not practicable to arrive at any simple solution, but the one which is proposed is that the person whose goods they are is to be given an option. He can either pay the duty and take the goods as they are, or he may surrender the goods to the Revenue and not pay the duty. That was the best that the Committee could suggest. Clause 6 is the Scottish application. Clause 7 enables the provisions of the Bill to be enacted by the Parliament of Northern Ireland. Clause 8, to which I

have already called attention, is the interpretation Clause. I hope that the Bill is non-contentious and fills a gap.

3.54 p.m.

Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: In the rather brief interval which I have had for studying this Bill it appeared to me to meet a very important need. The Solicitor-General has explained it with considerable lucidity, and I think it meets with the general approval of the House. My hon. Friends offer it no opposition.

Mr. Ammon: In my constituency there is a contractor making clothing for the Army. If a bomb falls on his factory and destroys the goods, who is to bear the cost of the damage, the contractor or the State?

The Solicitor-General: That is a very much wider question than this Bill, which deals only with a bailee in possession of property which belongs to somebody else. The hon. Gentleman's question is one of war damage.

Mr. Pethick-Lawrence: Is there a statement in such contracts as to how far the goods are the property of the Army or whether they remain the property of the factory?

The Solicitor-General: My right hon. Friend reminds me that if the goods were the property of the Government, the Government would lose them. If they are not the property of the Government, they are embraced within the scope of war insurance.

3.56 p.m.

Mr. Dingle Foot: I have not had an opportunity properly to read the Bill or to appreciate (fully everything that it contains, but I should like to ask the Solicitor-General a question. The Bill relieves a bailee of his contractual liabilities, but how far does it relieve him from the consequences of his own actions? One can conceive of cases in which goods would be exposed to war damage through the negligence of the bailee. It is possible to think of circumstances in which a bailee would not take the precaution which he ought to take to protect goods against war damage. What would be the position of a bailee in such circumstances?

3.57 p.m.

The Solicitor-General: At the moment I am not certain what the situation is in the case which the hon. Member envisages. Practically all contracts of bailment are in writing and, therefore, oust the Common Law relation as to negligence. It is difficult to conceive of a contract of bailment which does not come within the scope of Clause i, that is to say, even in the case of negligence. If the resulting damage was due to war, the bailee would not be responsible.

3.58 p.m.

Mr. Gallacher: I would like to ask a question in relation to Clause 4, which deals with pawnbrokers. In many working-class areas pawnbroking transactions are common. Paragraph (b) says:
unless (in a case of damage) the pawner redeems the pledge, he shall not be liable to repay the loan.
That is to say, he shall not be liable but if the owner redeems the pledge and pays the full amount to the pawnbroker, the owner will get a damaged article in return. Are any arrangements made whereby the pawnbroker will submit to the owner a statement of the original character of the article so that the latter may make a claim under war insurance, or is the owner only to have a damaged article in return for payment?

3.59 p.m.

The Solicitor-General: I cannot envisage a case of the kind which the hon. Member has in mind, where difficulties would arise under the War Insurance Act. I am not saying that it is not so, but, if I remember rightly, the Pawnbrokers Act of 1872 provides a method by which, in the case of fire, the value of the article could be ascertained by adding together the amount of the advance, the profit of the pawnbroker and 25 per cent., I think, over. So that Parliament has already fixed a value for the article in pledge, and if it was necessary to claim on the basis of value there is a method already by law by which that value could be obtained.

Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time," put, and agreed to.

Bill read a Second time.

Resolved, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill."—[Mr. Grimston.]

Bill accordingly considered in Committee.

[Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

CLAUSE I.—(Liabilities in respect of bailents.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

4.1 p.m.

Mr. Foot: I would like to follow up the point that I put just now to the Solicitor-General. The hon. and learned Gentleman's view was that, where the goods had been destroyed or damaged by war, the bailee was relieved of all liability in relation to the goods. We have had very short time in which to consider the Bill, but it seems to me that on the face of it there is something of a flaw in the Bill. The bailee should take reasonable care to safeguard against war damage the goods which are in his possession. Obviously there are steps that could be taken in order to give reasonable protection to the goods, and surely the bailee might be expected to take them.

4.2 p.m.

The Solicitor-General: What the hon. Gentleman suggests is a re-writing of the contract. That is the very thing that not only the Uthwatt Committee, but the committee that considered this subject-matter during the last War, thought was most undesirable. At any rate let the contract stand and provide that the loss or damage is due to war, but do not seek so to re-write the contract as to impose on the bailee a totally new obligation. What the hon. Gentleman wants to do is to read into the contract an obligation to do something to protect against war damage.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

Clauses 2 and 3 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 4.—(Liability of pawnbroker in case of fire.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

4.3 p.m.

Mr. Gallacher: I want to make it a responsibility for the pawnbroker, where the owner redeems a pledge on goods damaged as a result of war, to supply to the owner, on the redeeming of the pledge, a statement based upon the


pawnbroker's liability, so that the owner would be in a position, if there was an opportunity of making a claim, to make it. It is very desirable that where damaged goods are being recovered and the loan on them is being repaid such an estimate of value should be handed to the owner by the pawnbroker.

4.4 p.m.

The Solicitor-General: I do not think that that would be an appropriate addition to the Bill. It might be a very appropriate addition to the Pawnbrokers Act. Let me try to make clear to the hon. Member what T think would probably be the case. He is assuming that at some time or other the owner of the pledged goods will be able to get compensated by the Government. Suppose that someone has deposited a watch and chain, and the chain is destroyed but the watch remains. The amount advanced on both was £10. As I have explained, I think I am right in saying that there is an easy method, under the Pawnbrokers Act of 1872, by which the owner of the articles can find out their full value. It would mean the adding up of the three figures I have already mentioned. He is able no doubt to obtain from the pawnbroker a receipt for the amount of the pledge. It is not necessary to have a provision in this Bill to enable the owner to obtain that from the pawnbroker. No doubt the receipt would vouch for the fact that the owner did not receive the chain back. It seems to me that that is all the material the owner wants in order to make a claim for what he has lost, and I do not think that any specific provision in this Bill will be necessary.

4.6 p.m.

Mr. Gallacher: This is not a question of a watch and chain. It is a very common practice in many working-class districts for people to pledge boots and shoes and clothes and all sorts of things. In ordinary circumstances it is quite possible that if these goods were damaged the owners would not want to have them back, but in present circumstances it may be very difficult to get new boots and shoes and owners may even want to redeem their pledged clothes or shoes, even though they were damaged. It seems to me that it would be simple to insert in the Bill a provision that in the circumstances the broker should provide them

with an estimate with the amount of the damage done.

The Chairman: If any Amendment of that kind were moved, I would have to rule it out of order on this Bill. As the learned Solicitor-General has said, it would be an attempt to amend the Pawnbrokers Act and that would not be within the scope of this Bill.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 5.—(Liability in respect of customs and excise duties.)

4.7 p.m.

The Solicitor-General: I beg to move, in page 3, line 20, to insert:

"(1) Where any goods have become chargeable with a duty of customs or excise and, before the duty is paid and (in the case of an excise duty) before the goods have left the entered or registered premises of the manufacturer, the goods are lost by war, the duty shall not be chargeable.
(2) Where any goods have become chargeable with a duty of customs or excise and, before the duty is paid and (in the case of an excise duty) before the goods have left the entered or registered premises of the manufacturer, the goods are damaged by war, then—

(a)in a case where the duty is charge able by reference to value, the value of the goods shall be taken to be the value thereof as reduced by the damage;
(b)in any other case, the goods may be abandoned to the Commissioners of Customs and Excise and thereupon the duty shall not be chargeable."
These words are the words which appear in italics in the Bill.

Amendment agreed to.

Further Amendment made: In page 3, line 37, insert "whether by way of duty or otherwise."—[The Solicitor-General.]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 6 to 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, considered; read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.

Orders of the Day — POLICE AND FIREMEN (WAR SERVICE) BILL [Lords].

Order for Second Reading read.

4.9 p.m.

The Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Mr. Peake): I beg to move, "That the Bill be now read a Second time."
This Bill, though formidable in appearance and containing 16 Clauses, many of them of a technical and complicated character, has a purpose similar to that of recent emergency legislation that we have passed affecting the making up of the pay and the preservation of the superannuation rights of local government staffs and teachers. It enables the appropriate authorities to supplement the pay of police and firemen, while they are serving in any of His Majesty's forces, and it makes provision for the continuity of their superannuation and pension rights. The machinery necessary to achieve these results is somewhat complicated, and the first seven Clauses of the Bill are devoted to this.
Clause 1 enables the authority to supplement the pay up to the figure which the constable or fireman would be receiving if he were not serving in the Forces, and that provision may be continued by the authority for a period not exceeding one year after the termination of the war. That, of course, is to cover any hiatus which may occur between the discharge of the reservist from the Forces and his resumption of his occupation as a policeman or fireman. Under Clause 2 the period of war service, as extended, if necessary, under Clause 1, is to be reckoned for superannuation purposes. Under Clause 3 a man whose pay is supplemented under Clause 1 has to pay the appropriate contributions towards the fund from which his pension ultimately will be drawn.
Clause 4 is exceedingly complex. It deals with grants to be made either to the widows and dependants of police constables or firemen, or to the men themselves in the case of incapacity as a result of war service. The Clause is complicated because the existing statutory provisions are different in respect of police constables and firemen respectively, and because, in the case of the police forces, there are already three different scales upon which pensions are calculated, those scales depending, in the first instance, on whether the injury is received in the course of the man's duty as a policeman or under ordinary civilian circumstances; and, secondly, if the injury is received in the course of a man's duty as a police officer, whether the cause is accidental or otherwise. It is because there are

these varying scales of pensions, and because the positions of firemen and of police constables are different under Statute, that Clause 4 is so cumbersome. Clauses 5 and 6 merely provide machinery consequential on the preceding Clauses.
Clause 7 exempts from the provisions of the preceding Clauses certain firemen who have exercised an option which they possess to be treated as local government staff. Those firemen, of course, will be covered by similar legislation which was passed in respect of local government staffs a few days ago. Sub-section (2) of Clause 7 operates so as to take out of certain Clauses of the Bill certain firemen for whom special schemes are already in existence under local legislation. In London, Birmingham, and certain other places there are in existence schemes providing, under local legislation, for superannuation. Clause 7 requires these schemes to be amended so as to conform with the preceding Clauses.
The remaining Clauses of the Bill do not in any way touch the question of police officers' or firemen's pay during war service, or the question of superannuation and pensions, but deal with quite other matters. Clause 8 provides that a policeman who is on probation at the time he is called up for military service shall continue to serve the remainder of his probationary period when he resumes his occupation in the police force. Clause 9 provides that re-attestation shall not be necessary on completion of war service. Clause 10 is an important Clause. It operates to prevent either a chief officer of police or a constable or fireman retiring in the ordinary way on pension as long as the war continues. Retirement will be possible only, in the case of a chief officer, with the consent of his authority, and, in the case of other ranks of the two services, with the consent of the man's chief officer. I would draw the attention of the Committee to the fact that under this Clause any pension rights which have already accrued are preserved from possible forfeiture during the remaining period of police or fire service.
Clause 11 is a little technical, but what it in fact provides is that injuries received by police constables or firemen serving on what we may call the home front will result in the man drawing pension at the


highest of the various scales. Clause 12 is a small piece of machinery, and extends to firemen the right, already possessed by police pensioners, to undertake temporary service under local authorities during a war without forfeiture of a pension of which they are already in receipt. Clause 13 brings within the scope of the Bill any police constables or firemen called out under the Reserve and Auxiliary Forces Act or undergoing training under the Military Training Act. The remaining Clauses do not, I think, need any detailed description, but I shall be pleased to answer any questions on any of the Clauses during the further stages of the Bill.

.4.19 p.m.

Mr. Dalton: We have not had time, of course, to study the Bill in any proper fashion, but the hon. Gentleman has given an account of it from which I may draw general conclusions. I think there "may be particular points, however, which should be looked at more closely. My hon. Friend the Member for North Camberwell (Mr. Ammon) has had more experience of these matters than I have, and he may follow me to put some questions. One question which I should like to ask is whether I rightly understand that the additional financial obligation provided for in the first part of the Bill will fall partly on local authorities and partly on the police themselves? Will any of it fall on the Treasury? Perhaps the hon. Member will give an answer to that question.

Mr. Peake: The additional charges, as far as supplementation of pay is concerned, and, I think, as far as any additional charge is placed upon the funds for pensions purposes as well, will be borne in the same way as all other police expenditure, that is, divided equally between the Exchequer and the local authority.

Mr. Dalton: We may ask a little more about that later, and I wanted to get the facts clear. For ourselves, after listening to the hon. Gentleman's exposition, I find nothing to which any objection can be taken except and in so far as hon. Friends who have given close study to these matters have some points readily at their fingers' end and might wish to raise those points now. We have no objection to the principle of the Bill.

4.21 p.m.

Mr. Foot: Like every other hon. Member of this House, I have not had very long to look at this Bill. As the Minister says, Clause 4, which is one of the most important Clauses, is exceedingly complicated. That may be the reason why I fail to appreciate all the provisions. The Bill deals with a policeman or a fireman who, while serving in His Majesty's Forces during the period of the present emergency, either loses his life or is so incapacitated by wounds or disease that he incurs that he is unable to resume his service as a constable or fireman. It is provided, in the first place, in the case of a policeman who is incapacitated, that the appropriate authority might increase the amount payable up to a certain maximum. Where the man has died, and it is a question of paying a pension to his widow such pension may be paid if the appropriate authority thinks fit. The maximum is the amount that the man could have received under any scheme if he had remained in his ordinary employment and had been killed or injured in that employment. Why is this part of the Bill left optional? I can see in the earlier part of the Bill, when it is a question of making up a man's salary, that there are good reasons for leaving it optional. We did it with regard to local government officers. Where a man has been incapacitated because of war service or loses his life through war service, surely he or his widow should have an absolute claim to pension, without leaving it to the option of any employing authority. Why has the Bill been drafted in that way, and why cannot we see our way in this case, where the man makes the great sacrifice, to give the pension rights and not leave it to discretion whether or not pension is given?

4.24 p.m.

Mr. Ammon: I understand that the Bill concerns the regular members of the police and fire services and takes no account of the auxiliary services, and that it embraces a question which has been before the House on many occasions known as "war services to count." A man may serve in the Army or Navy, as the case may be, and on his return to civil life the actual service


in the Army or Navy is allowed to count towards his Civil pension.
No doubt the hon. Gentleman will make that point clear in this connection. If that is so, it will take into account that which would be due to a man in his ordinary progress in the service and what might accrue to him with regard to promotion. If the Bill does not do that, it will not fulfil what it sets out to do, and what the hon. Member, in introducing the Bill, said it would do. The pension fund at present is a limited one. Within a certain time a number of men will fall due for pensions. There is a fund to meet such an emergency, but what will happen if there are increasing and abnormal demands. This is a tripartite contribution, and I should like to know whether the fund will be maintained and kept in sufficient strength by contributions from the Treasury alone, or will there be an increased demand made upon other contributors to the fund? Unless something of the kind is done, it cannot be long before the fund will be bankrupt.
Does the Bill also mean that dependants of such men who come on to the pension fund will not come under the Ministry of Pensions? Is the Ministry of Pensions to be relieved of responsibility at the expense of funds raised by various authorities concerned with police forces? That is a point of some moment, and particularly will it be so when, we hope before long, things return to normal, and people have to consider their pension rights. There is the question of the person who will not be allowed to retire when he has reached pensionable age until after the war period. In certain departments of the Civil Service a man very often reaches pensionable age before he has been able to put in the maximum period of service entitling him to full pension. I suppose that the man who has reached pensionable age and has been asked to stay on will be allowed to count the extra service for pension, so that he can possibly receive the maximum. If there should be an abnormal number of people coming on to the fund at a more rapid rate than otherwise would be the case, it would throw upon the local authorities a much larger expenditure than would be the case under ordinary circumstances; and I think that the State ought to take over a very much

larger share of responsibility in this matter.

4.30 p.m.

Sir Arnold Wilson: There are two small points which I wish to raise. One is that I think it will be necessary, sooner or later—if not in this Bill, then elsewhere —to provide for some form of arbitration or some outside authority where local authorities have contracted out of their responsibility by insuring themselves against accident with some industrial insurance company. The contract of insurance cannot possibly coverall the contingencies which are bound to arise, as contemplated by the Bill, and it seems 1o me that the Home Office should take powers, either direct or through some third party, for arbitration to consider the point.
A further point is the relation of the Minister of Pensions to such cases as these. It is most important that the Minister of Pensions should have full control, if by any means possible, of all pensions which are payable on account of war injuries. The Ministry of Pensions have an unrivalled system of looking after the pensioners, of providing them with artificial limbs, and various aids which are necessary on account of their injuries, and also for their rehabilitation. It would be a disaster if the thousand odd local authorities had to look after war pensions locally, with no centralised arrangement, and I would urge on all the Government Departments concerned that they should see to it that there is a link between the local pensions which are payable, from whatever source, and the Ministry of Pensions, for the purposes of administration.

4.32 p.m.

Mr. Gallacher: I can well understand the necessity of passing these Bi11s in emergency, but it is unfortunate that a Bill like this should have to be rushed through. I am very deeply concerned about Clause 4 and the implications that may arise out of it. The hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot) has referred to the permissible character of that Clause with regard the grant of pensions or allowances to the widow and the children under 16. It is obvious that if a man has been a policeman or a fireman and he becomes a soldier and loses his life as a result of the war, his widow and dependants will be entitled to pensions and.


allowances through the Ministry of Pensions, and anything that is provided for in this Clause will, presumably, be a supplementary grant. There are, however, certain local authorities that are in a condition of the most extreme poverty, while other local authorities are better situated. It might easily transpire that one pension was being supplemented by a grant from one local authority while another pension was not being supplemented by another local authority. That would be a very undesirable position of affairs to happen in any part of the country. It seems to me that Clause 4, in particular, and the Bill in general require much more consideration. The Minister has referred to Clause 4 as being very complicated, and it certainly needs more consideration.
I am also concerned with regard to Clause 8, which refers to a policeman who is on probation. He may have only three months still to serve on probation at the time that he is called up or joins up to serve in the Forces, but according to this Clause, after he comes back he will return to the same position in regard to probation that he was in before he joined the Forces, and will have his period of probation to complete. In many cases the experience that he has gone through in the armed Forces will have fitted him, on return to civil life, for going into the police force, without having to serve any further period of probation. The Clause says that:
he shall serve on probation for so much of his period of probation as was unexpired at the time when he ceased so to serve.
I do not like that provision, and some Amendment ought to be made. I am, however, particularly concerned about Clause 4, and I suggest that the Minister should agree that even after the Bill has passed, he should appoint a small committee of those who have very wide experience in these matters, and authorise them to examine the Bill carefully to see where its weaknesses are and how it can be strengthened, and whether it is possible that, instead of the local authority having this permissive Clause in connection with the grant of supplementary pensions, it could be made obligatory on local authorities. Perhaps the Minister could make a statement of that kind. It might be made a condition in the Act that the local authorities could get a return from the State of the cost of these particular pen-

sions or allowances. I would urge the Minister to consider the setting up of such a committee, to consider whether the Bill will accomplish all that is desired, and to decide whether or not it may be necessary to bring in amending legislation.

4.37 p.m.

Mr. Peake: I will deal with the points that have been raised, in order that it will not be necessary to raise them on the Committee stage. The hon. Member for Dundee (Mr. Foot) and the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher) both raised the question of Clause 4. That Clause provides, in Sub-section (1), that if a constable is serving in His Majesty's Forces and he loses his life under the conditions contemplated in the Sub-section, it would be obligatory upon the authority to pay a pension to the widow and dependants at the lowest level of the scales which are provided, but they have in the proviso permission to increase the pension beyond that figure. If the hon. Members will turn to Sub-section (4), they will see that the maximum pension which may be granted is the highest of the police scales, when aggregated with the amount of any grant which is also payable to that person out of any naval, military, or Air Force funds, in pursuance of any Royal Warrant or other instrument. The assumption is that in every case the Service pension will be received, and the appropriate authority has to supplement that pension. The maximum would be the highest of the scales at present available, and the minimum would be the lowest of the scales at present available; but what we should find in practice would be that the addition of the war pension would bring practically all the pensioners on to a scale very nearly approximating to the highest scale at present in force. I am afraid this is rather a complicated matter, but that is the position so far as police constables are concerned.
There is a difference in regard to firemen, who are provided for in Subsection (2), because the Fire Brigade (Pensions) Act does not provide for a widow's pension or gratuity in a case where the fireman dies otherwise than as the result of injury incurred on duty. Whereas the widow and dependants of a police constable receive a pension irrespective of the circumstances under which the death occurs, the widow and dependants of the fireman receive pension


and allowances only if the fireman dies in the discharge of his duty as a fireman. But, where war service is concerned, the appropriate authority may grant the pension appropriate in the case where a man dies on war service in supplementation of any service pension which his widow or children may receive.

Mr. Foot: Surely, if the authority does not exercise its discretion in favour of the widow, she will be left worse off if her husband has died on active service than if he died while serving as a fireman.

Mr. Peake: That might be so, if the rates of service pension were lower than the rates of fire brigade pension existing at the time, and it is because of that contingency that this provision is placed in the Bill to enable the appropriate authority to supplement the pension and bring it up to a fair figure.
The hon. Member for North Camber-well (Mr. Ammon) asked me whether increments of pay would be taken into account in reckoning the supplementary pay which may be granted while these men are on active service. The answer is, "Yes." As regards maintenance of the pensions fund, there again the provisions are somewhat complicated. In point of fact the police authorities do not set aside a separate pensions fund. The rateable deductions are made from the constable's pay, and the pensions are paid out of the general fund.

Mr. Ammon: In drawing up its budget for the year the local authority takes into account the number of people, and, therefore, more or less there is a time limit.

Mr. Peake: That is so, and the additional police expenditure, if there is any, under Clause 1 will fall to be divided between the local authorities and the Exchequer. I rather think that the replies that I have given cover the questions asked by the hon. Gentleman the Member for Hitchin (Sir A. Wilson) and the hon. Member for West Fife (Mr. Gallacher).

Question, "That the Bill be now read a Second time," put, and agreed to.

Bill read a Second time.

Resolved, "That this House will immediately resolve itself into the Committee on the Bill."—[Captain Dugdale.]

Bill accordingly considered in Committee.

[Sir DENNIS HERBERT in the Chair.]

CLAUSE 3.—(Rateable deductions.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

4.43 p.m.

Mr. Ammon: I should like to ask the hon. Gentleman whether or not the whole of this cost is to be thrown on the pensions fun or whether any part will be borne by the Ministry of Pensions. Is the Ministry of Pensions shouldering its responsibility partly on local authorities and partly on other Departments?

4.44 p.m.

Mr. Peake: The Clause deals with rateable deductions to be made from the policeman or fireman while he is serving in His Majesty's Forces. Those deductions will continue to be made if the man's pay is being supplemented, or he is receiving as much as or more than he would have received in his civilian occupation. I do not see how under the Clause the Police Fund is going to suffer. It is going to continue to receive the subsidies that it is receiving at present; therefore, it will not be any the smaller by virtue of anything contained in the Clause.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 4. — (Grants in case of death or incapacity.)

Amendment made: In page 4, line 30, insert:

"(1) If a person to whom Section one of this Act applies (being a person who, in order to serve in His Majesty's Forces, ceased to serve as a constable) dies either—

(a)while serving in His Majesty's Forces during the period of the present emergency; or
(b)in consequence of wounds or disease received or contracted while so serving which prevented him from resuming his service as a constable or fireman;

the appropriate pension enactment shall apply in relation to him as if he—

(i) had been serving at the time of his death in the police force or fire brigade to which he belonged immediately before he ceased to serve as a constable or fireman; and
(ii) had died otherwise than from the effects of an injury received in the execution of his duty:

Provided that where by virtue of the foregoing provisions of this Sub-section a pension or allowance is payable to any person, the


appropriate authority may increase the amount thereof up to such amount as they think fit, not exceeding the maximum amount hereafter provided.

(2) If a person to whom Section one of this Act applies (being a person who, in order to serve in His Majesty's forces, ceased to serve as a fireman) dies either—

(a) while serving in His Majesty's forces during the period of the present emergency; or
(b) in consequence of wounds or disease received or contracted while so serving which prevented him from resuming his service as a constable or fireman;
the appropriate authority may if they think fit pay—

(i) a pension to his widow;
(ii) allowances to his children under sixteen years of age until they severally reach the age of sixteen years;
(iii) a gratuity to any relative of his who has been wholly or mainly dependent upon him;
of an amount not exceeding the maximum amount hereafter provided, and subject to the provisions of this Section the provisions of the appropriate pensions enactment shall apply to any pension, allowance or gratuity granted under this Sub-section as they apply to any pension, allowance or gratuity granted under that enactment.

(3) If a person to whom Section one. of this Act applies, after ceasing to serve in His Majesty's forces, is prevented, in consequence of wounds or disease received or contracted while so serving, from resuming his service as a constable or fireman, the appropriate pension enactment shall apply in relation to him as if he—

(a) had become, while serving as a constable or fireman in the police force or fire brigade to which he belonged immediately before he ceased to serve as a constable or fireman, incapacitated for the performance of his duty by infirmity of mind or body otherwise than in consequence of an injury received in the execution of his duty; and
(b) had retired on a medical certificate, at the time when he ceased to serve in His Majesty's forces, from that police force or fire brigade:

Provided that—

(i) where by virtue of the foregoing provisions of this Sub-section a gratuity is payable to any such person, the appropriate authority may, if they think fit, in lieu of paying him a gratuity, pay to him, under and subject to the provisions of the appropriate pension enactment, a pension of an amount not less than one-twelfth of his annual pay and not greater than the maximum amount hereafter provided; and
(ii) where by virtue of the said provisions of this Sub-section a pension is payable to any such person, the appropriate authority may, if they think fit, increase the amount of the pension up to such amount as they think fit, not exceeding the maximum amount hereafter provided.

(4) The amount of any pension or allowance payable to any person for any period at the discretion of the appropriate authority by virtue of this Section shall not, when agree gated with the amount of any grant which is also payable for that period to that person out of any naval, military or air force fund in pursuance of any royal warrant or other instrument, exceed—

(a) in a case to which Sub-section (1) or (2) of this Section applies, the amount which would have been payable to that person for that period under the appropriate pension enactment if the deceased had died from the effects of a non-accidental injury received in the execution of his duty as a constable or fireman without his own default; and
(b) in a case to which Sub-section (3) of this Section applies, the amount which would have been payable to that person for that period if he had been incapacitated for the performance of his duty as a constable or fireman by infirmity of mind or body occasioned by an injury received in the execution of his duty without his own default.

(5) Where the grant, the amount whereof for any period is to be aggregated for the purpose of the last foregoing Sub-section with the amount of a pension or allowance payable to any person for that period, is a gratuity, the amount of the grant for that period shall be taken to be the amount which would be payable for that period under Part I of the Government Annuities Act, 1929, if the gratuity had been laid out at the date when it became payable in the purchase of an immediate annuity dependent on the life of that person."— [Mr. Peake.]

Motion made, and Question proposed,

"That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill."

4.45 p.m.

Sir A. Wilson: The Under-Secretary has not dealt with the question of the Ministry of Pensions responsibility for those who are wounded and those who are partially or wholly incapacitated, who, in my submission, should be looked after by the Ministry of Pensions. Can my hon. Friend make any statement on the subject?

Mr. Peake: That really falls rather outside the scope of the Bill, but in Subsection (4) it is anticipated that there will be a war pension which will fall to be aggregated, and the provision out of the Police and Fire Pensions Funds will be in supplementation of the war pension. Therefore, I think my hon. Friends may assume that the man will be primarily dealt with, as far as disabilities are concerned, by the Ministry of Pensions.

4.46 p.m.

Mr. Gallacher: I should like to ask the hon. Gentleman to give further consideration to the Clause, because earlier I drew attention to the fact that if the pension given by the Ministry of Pensions is as much as or more than the pension that he would have received as a fireman, there would be no question of a supplementary grant, but if the pension is less than he would have received as a fireman, there may be a supplementary grant to raise it to that amount. We shall still have the situation that, if the pension is less, one authority may give a supplementary grant to raise it and another may not. I should like the hon. Gentleman to look into it further and see whether something cannot be done to ensure that there will be no irregularity of that kind.

4.47 p.m.

Mr. Peake: I will bear the point in mind. The Home Secretary has a certain amount of control over local police authorities, and, no doubt, steps could be taken to secure fair and uniform treatment.

Mr. Foot: Is there any reason why this supplementation should not be made compulsory?

Mr. Peake: In Sub-section (1) it is made compulsory, and it is also made compulsory in all cases of incapacity under Sub-section (3). It is only in the case of a fireman who dies on active service that supplementation is not made obligatory, and that is on account of the existing statutory difference between the position of a fireman and a police constable.

Question, "That the Clause, as amended, stand part of the Bill," put, and agreed to.

CLAUSE 5.— (Reckoning of pay during war service.)

Amendment made: In page 8, line 14, insert "grant or."— [Mr. Peake.]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clause 6 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 7. — (Exception of certain firemen.)

Amendment made: In page 9, line 20, insert:
but the following provisions of this Subsection shall have effect as respects any such

fireman who ceases to serve in any fire brigade in order to serve in His Majesty's forces—

(i) the local authority maintaining that fire brigade shall, as soon as may be after the commencement of this Act, submit to the Secretary of State a scheme containing such amendments of the regulations, Act or scheme regulating the superannuation rights of members of that brigade as will secure that any such fireman shall, as nearly as may be, have the same rights and be under the same obligations as are conferred or imposed by the said Sections of this Act on a fireman to whom the Fire Brigade Pensions Act, 1925, applies;
(ii) the Secretary of State may by order approve, either with or without modifications, any scheme so submitted and when so approved the scheme shall be deemed to have had effect as from the commencement of this Act;
(iii) any scheme approved under this Sub-section may be varied by a subsequent scheme submitted and approved in like manner."— [Mr Peake.]

Clause, as amended, ordered to stand part of the Bill.

CLAUSE 8—(Constables on probation.)

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill."

Mr. Gallacher: Can the hon. Gentleman say something about the position of a constable on probation who resumes service?

4.49 p.m.

Mr. Peake: I do not think it unreasonable that a constable who has only served a month or two months of his probationary period when he joins His Majesty's Forces should be put back in exactly the same position when he rejoins the police force as he was in when he left it.

Mr. Gallacher: I take it that some regard will be taken of his employment in the past as he will have served some considerable time to earn supplementation.

Mr. Peake: I think it is a little early to begin to prophesy how long these men will be away.

Mr. Ammon: But these men will not receive any increment, unhappily. What is to happen?

Mr. Peake: I think I had better find out the answer to that question and correspond with the hon. Member.

Mr. Gallacher: I think it is desirable that a man who retires from the Forces


should be in no worse a position than he was; if possible that he should be in a better position.

Mr. Peake: Our hope is that a man will be in a position as good as or better than he was, on leaving the Forces.

Question, "That the Clause stand part of the Bill." put, and agreed to.

Clauses 9 and 10 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

Clauses 13 to 16 ordered to stand part of the Bill.

NEW CLAUSE. —(Payments to make up amount of civil remuneration.)

—(1) Where during the period of the present emergency a person serving as a constable or fireman ceases so to serve in order to serve in His Majesty's forces, the appropriate authority shall have power to make to or in respect of him such payments as are hereafter in this Section provided.

Any such person is hereafter in this Act referred to as a person to whom this Section applies.

(2)While a person to whom this Section applies is serving during the said period in His Majesty's forces, the appropriate authority may pay to him or to or for the benefit of his wife or other dependants nominated by him, a sum which shall not exceed the pay and allowances he would have received if he had continued to serve as a constable or fireman, after deducting there from the amount of his service pay.

(3)On any such person ceasing to serve in His Majesty's forces, the appropriate authority may, for such period as the authority may determine having regard to till the circumstances of the case, but not in any case expiring later than one year after the end of the period of the present emergency, pay to him or to or for the benefit of his wife or other dependants nominated by him, a sum not greater than the pay and allowances he would have received if he had been serving as a constable or fireman.

(4)Any payment made under this Section to any person shall—

(a)in the case of a constable, be made out of the fund out of which his pension would have been payable if he had continued to serve as a constable in the police force to which he belonged immediately before he ceased so to serve; and
(b)in the case of a fireman, be made out of the fund out of which there are paid the expenses of the fire brigade to which he belonged immediately before he erased to serve as a fireman. — [Mr. Peake.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause be read a Second time," put, and agreed to.

Clause added to the Bill.

NEW CLAUSE. — (Reckoning of war service for purposes of superannuation.)

— (1) For the purposes of the appropriate pension enactment—

(a)any period for which a person to whom Section one of this Act applies serves in His Majesty's forces during the period of the present emergency; and
(b)any period for which payments are made to or in respect of any such person under Sub-section (3) of the said Section one;
shall be treated as a period of approved service in the police force or fire brigade to which he belonged immediately before he ceased to serve as a constable or fireman in order to serve in His Majesty's forces:

Provided that no period before any such person attains the minimum age for approved service under the appropriate pension enactment shall be treated as a period of approved service.

(2) For the purposes of Sections nine and twenty of the Police Pensions Act, 1921, and Sections seven and eighteen of the Fire Brigade Pensions Act, 1925 (which relate to discontinuous service and to a return of rateable deductions on retirement), a person to whom Section one of this Act applies shall be deemed to have retired from or left the police force or fire brigade to which he belonged immediately before he ceased to serve as a constable or fireman, if and when, but not before, he fails to resume service as a constable or fireman at the end of the period which by virtue of Sub-section (1) of this Section is treated as a period of approved service in his case, or within such further time from the end of that period as the appropriate authority may fix with the approval of the Secretary of State. —. Peake.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause be read a Second time," put, and agreed to.

Clause added to the Bill.

NEW CLAUSE. — (War injuries to be deemed non-accidental injuries.)

.For the purpose of the Police Pensions Act, 1921, and the Fire Brigade Pensions Act, 1925, and any other Act or any rules or scheme providing for the pensions of firemen, a war injury within the meaning of the Personal Injuries (Emergency Provisions) Act,1939, shall be deemed to be a non-accidental injury. — [Mr. Peake.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause be read a Second time," put, and agreed to.

Clause added to the Bill.

NEW CLAUSE. — (Relief of firemen from suspension of pensions.)

Notwithstanding anything in Section sixteen of the Fire Brigade Pensions Act. 1925,


a pension receivable by a person under that Act shall not be suspended for any period for which he takes temporary service in any capacity under a local authority during the period of the present emergency.—[Mr. Peake.]

Brought up, and read the First time.

Motion made, and Question, "That the Clause be read a Second time," put, and agreed to.

Clause added to the Bill.

Motion made, and Question proposed, "That the Bill, with Amendments, be reported to the House."

4.52 p.m.

Mr. Dalton: Perhaps the Under-Secretary can now give us the answer which he said he would do in correspondence with my hon. Friend the Member for Camber-well, North (Mr. Ammon).

Mr. Peake: The position is that while the period of probation will continue when the man resumes his service with the police after returning from his war service, the increments of pay which he would have received will be credited to him for the purpose of supplementing his pay.

Question put, and agreed to.

Bill reported, with Amendments; as amended, considered; read the Third time, and passed, with Amendments.

IMPORT DUTIES (IMPORT DUTIES ACT, 1932).

IRON AND STEEL GOODS.

4.53 p.m.

The President of the Board of Trade (Mr. Oliver Stanley): I beg to move:
 That the Additional Import Duties (No. 6) Order, 1939, dated the nineteenth day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, made by the Treasury under the Import Duties Act, 1932, a copy of which was presented to this House on the said nineteenth day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, be approved.
I have to trouble the House with these Import Duties Orders, which were brought in under entirely different circumstances and, of course, have no relation to the conditions which exist at the moment. I can easily explain why it is necessary to maintain these duties. They were imposed just before the House rose in July, and unless this Resolution is passed they will lapse in a day or two. We have within the last few days passed an Act

which removes from the Import Duties Advisory Committee the authority for the imposition or reduction of duties of this kind and places it upon the Treasury. When that is done it will be necessary to take a general review of the duties which are now imposed, including in particular the complicated system of duties on iron and steel goods many of which have relation to a European cartel which, of course, is likely to be quite inappropriate in war time. It is quite clear that a review of this kind must take a certain amount of time, and there will be an interval before the Treasury will be able to bring forward under their new authority a new plan dealing with orders of this kind.
It would be unfortunate if these duties, which have been on since last July, were allowed to lapse pending that general review, because the result would be that in a certain number of cases additional duties would have to be imposed on iron and steel products coming from such countries as Sweden, Holland, and Belgium, when it may be to our interest to get them in at the lowest possible rate of duty. It is clear, pending the general revision of these duties which will now have to be taken, that it is wise to keep the whole range of duties as they are now and not by allowing them to lapse to have to increase certain duties which then, after a general review, we shall want to remove. That is the reason why I move the Resolution. It is well to keep the position stable until we have had a general review.

4.57 p.m.

Mr. Foot: I should like a further explanation. When I saw that we were going to discuss these Orders to-day I thought we were living in a world of bedlam. A little light has been thrown upon them by the right hon. Member, but even so it seems remarkable that we should be imposing additional duties on iron and steel products at the moment. I should have thought that if a general revision of the duties was necessary, it would have been quite easy to undertake that general revision without this particular increase being put on or being confirmed. The only argument the right hon. Gentleman has brought forward is one which I find difficult to follow. He said that if we failed to confirm these Import Duties Orders, it would then be


necessary for the Treasury to place additional duties on steel goods coming from certain countries, and he mentioned Sweden. He said that in the present circumstances it would be an unfortunate thing to do. I may have failed to follow his argument, but it is difficult to see why, if we do not confirm import duties which we no longer need it should necessitate an immediate imposition by the Treasury of a new set of import duties.
We have, of course, an entirely different situation in regard to imported goods. There are goods which we need and goods which we do not want. If they are goods which we do not want, the President of the Board of Trade has power to exclude them entirely under the Act which we passed the other day. If they are goods which we want in our war economy, it is difficult to see why we should impede their importation by keeping tariffs on, and increasing in some cases the duties, if only for a short time.

Mr. Stanley: I can give the hon. Member a very short answer. The effect of these Orders is, on the whole, to reduce the duties on goods from our principal suppliers, but to increase duties upon two classes of competitors, such as Japan, in one class of goods; and therefore, the general effect of not passing the Orders would be to allow the duties on the larger part of the imported goods to go back to what they originally were, although it is true that would reduce the duties on the smaller part. The main effect of the Orders is to reduce the duties, and if the Orders were allowed to lapse, the duties would be higher.

Mr. Foot: I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman. Does he say that in the case of the first Order, taken by itself, if we failed to confirm it, it would mean a general increase in duties?

Mr. Stanley: It would mean an increase in the duties on the main part of our imports.

Question put, and agreed to.

Resolved,
 That the Additional Import Duties (No. 6) Order, 1939, dated the nineteenth day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, made by the Treasury under the Import Duties Act, 1932, a copy of which was presented to this House on the said nineteenth day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, be approved.''

Resolved,
 That the Additional Import Duties (No. 7) Order, 1939, dated the nineteenth day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, made by the Treasury under the Finance Act, 1936, a copy of which was presented to this House on the said nineteenth day of July, nineteen hundred and thirty-nine, be approved."—[Mr. Stanley.]

MESSAGE FROM THE LORDS.

That they have agreed to—

Import Duties (Emergency Provisions) Bill.

Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Bill.

Income Tax Procedure (Emergency Provisions) Bill.

Government and other Stocks (Emergency Provisions) Bill.

Exchequer and Audit Departments (Temporary Provisions) Bill, without Amendment. Amendments to—

Liability for War Damage (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill [Lords].

Police and Firemen (War Service) Bill [Lords], without Amendment.

ROYAL ASSENT.

Message to attend the Lords Commissioners.

The House went; and, having re turned—

Mr. SPEAKER reported the Royal Assent to

1. Import Duties (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1939.
2. Sheriff Courts (Scotland) Act, 1939.
3. Income Tax Procedure (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1939.
4. Government and other Stocks (Emergency Provisions) Act, 1939.
5. Exchequer and Audit Departments(Temporary Provisions) Act, 1939.
6. Liability for War Damage (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 1939.
7. Police and Firemen (War Service)Act, 1939.

ADJOURNMENT.

Resolved, "That this House do now adjourn till Wednesday next." — [Captain Margesson.]

Adjourned accordingly at Sixteen Minutes after Five o'Clock till Wednesday next, 13th September